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Missile weapons question
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Moderators: Lucas, dave, Curt R, davie, Taylor
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BORK
Sat Mar 31 2018, 09:15p.m.
Registered Member #910
Joined: Sat Sep 13 2008, 12:31p.m.

Posts: 51
per rules update:
Parrying Missile Weapons

Missile weapons that carry no special effect that cause Normal damage may only be parried by the Deflect Normal Missiles Skill. Missiles that cause Silver, Magic, or Massive damage without any additional effects cannot be parried. Thrown Weapons or Arrows carrying an effect from a Bow, such as a Fire Blade Spell or a Slay, can be parried if the missile weapon is deflected with any properly wielded weapon or shield. ________________

So, If I am reading this right:
Normal missiles (edge/blunt) can be parried if I have the deflect normal missiles skill, everything else hits you unless there is an effect on it, then you do not need any special abilities to block it?

So, assuming I have deflect normal missiles,
If I get shot with a normal bow anywhere I take no damage. (Parried)
If I get shot with a silver bow in my shield I take the damage. (Can't Parry)
If I get shot with the same silver bow in the shield and they try to slay me I do not take damage. (Can try to Parry)

This doesn't make any sense. Why make shields useless against other than normal bows?

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Lucas
Sat Mar 31 2018, 10:47p.m.

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Joined: Sat Dec 09 2006, 11:54p.m.

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Shields are first and foremost designed for melee protection that always deflects and never is damaged or depleted, all for just 6 points. To give ultimate protection for free against missile weapons would be unbalanced. In most games, shields provide some but not complete protection against missile weapons, less so against special or magic damage.

If you are hit in the shield with a missile weapon hit that does not have a special effect, you take damage. Shields always function the same way if you do not have the Shield Master kit.

If you purchase the 6pt skill Deflect Normal Missiles for 6 points, you can deflect normal damage weapons even if the user takes up to +10 on the weapon in skills and *5 from a quality bow, which is the benefit of an additional skill and pretty good for 6 points. Especially given that missile weapons are limited to quantity carried, as well as picked up and reused with the appropriate skill. Or NPCs which mostly use normal thrown weapons too. Not bad for 6 points IMO

It’s similar to all level one spells affect a target unless the target learns Aura of Power I which negates offensive level 1 spells.

On the flip side, to allow missile weapons with special effects like slays, AP blows, etc to work at point blank range is unbalanced as well. Every fighter would have a rock and throw it at one foot away right off a big target of a shield, an unavoidable hit that makes shields useless, which is why they can be parried by a shield.

There’s always room to submit Deflect Silver and Magic Missiles, which only really negates someone making a silver or magic bow or missile weapon. Maybe even one to negate ALL missile weapons at the top tier. Or to remove the skill so that missile weapons always damage the target no matter what.

There are a few more details around each pro and con but that’s the primary points on why the rule is set up the way it is.

As always, if gameplay shows there’s an issue one way or the other and it’s broken, or if someone submits revisions or additions, we can always review.
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BORK
Mon Apr 02 2018, 11:04p.m.
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Joined: Sat Sep 13 2008, 12:31p.m.

Posts: 51
I do not buy your argument. A long sword is a low cost ability that does an unlimited amount of damage. Is that comparable to a first level spell in cost or function?

Shields are made for general defense, not just melee fighting. Archers should have to hit their targets just like someone swinging a sword. If a shield can stop a +5 magic pole-arm it will stop an arrow. Especially if I put in the time/effort/cost to have a magic or quality shield.

Shields like anything else come down to the ability to use them well to be effective. And you are saying that even if I spend all the points to be a shield master, it does not matter if my opponent has a silver bow.
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BORK
Tue Apr 03 2018, 12:28a.m.
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Joined: Sat Sep 13 2008, 12:31p.m.

Posts: 51
Also, it is not just 6 points to deflect a missile. You have to purchase shield use and be a 4th level fighter. Total is 42 points. Kind of costly to allow me the attempt to block a normal arrow with my shield.
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BORK
Tue Apr 03 2018, 12:55a.m.
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Joined: Sat Sep 13 2008, 12:31p.m.

Posts: 51
Also, also taking this to a greater level a fighter can have a bow as their primary weapon with the ranged expert and a +5 quality bow and be doing 20 points of unstoppable damage. And they can retrieve their missiles. The spell Enchanted Weapon or skill Magic Damage makes the damage magical and unblock-able.
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Lucas
Tue Apr 03 2018, 02:16a.m.

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Joined: Sat Dec 09 2006, 11:54p.m.

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I guess then I don’t buy your counter argument and you provide no solution?

I summed up basis for the rules currently as they are. I also said if you don’t like it or feel it’s broken, submit a change and it will be reviewed.

Outside of games, Arrows never punched through shields and damage the user just like they can punch through armor? Shields are not indestructible and normal shields should wear down or break when a magic pole arm hits it IMO, but that’s not how our melee combat works so it’s a trade off for easier game play. Otherwise they’d provide armor points only if hit that need repaired, which would be detrimental to game play and cumbersome, and no one would count or fix them anyways.

Also to your point, A fighter with +20 clearly put more than 42 points into their weapon so why should those 42 points override the 100+ that an archer spends? Rate of fire is slower, there’s more risk to hit allies, you can’t block with a bow...there’s negatives to the other side too.

does removing or restricting retrieve missile weapons fix it? Does changing what a quality or enchantable or magic shield blocks? Change deflect normal to deflect normal/silver and make it 12 points (but then what about magic and Missiles with effects because the cost invested by the attacker is higher)?

How often / what percentage of times are you hit by non-normal and non-enchanted/special effect arrows, and how “broken” is it? Are there more archers than shield fighters because of it?

Think about a balanced fix and submit it, but don’t ignore the obvious benefits in the current system.
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dave
Tue Apr 03 2018, 02:24a.m.

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Joined: Sun Dec 10 2006, 02:16a.m.

Posts: 1065
Also, this has been brought up at least 3-4 times that I can remember. Each time the various different rules committees have decided that this was the most fair and balanced way to play it.
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BORK
Tue Apr 03 2018, 03:59p.m.
Registered Member #910
Joined: Sat Sep 13 2008, 12:31p.m.

Posts: 51
All weapons have advantages and disadvantages. A bow is just another weapon whose primary advantage is to strike from a distance. You have already offset the negatives to the weapon by creating a kit which greatly increases the damage possible and eliminating the need to carry 100 arrows. The fact that it basically ignores shields is doing more than balancing the game. No other weapon is given that kind of consideration. I do not understand why you feel the need to improve the lot of the ranged weapon user especially when they are choosing to take the weapon in the first place and they are free to take other weapons as well. Your argument makes it seem as if they cannot draw a sword and defend themselves if an enemy gets too close. They can even use a shield themselves!!!

The 42 point is the minimum to be able to attempt block a normal arrow. That does not include a weapon or any other skillz. It is a little disingenuous for you to try and compare that with the higher level archer scenario I mentioned as far as skill cost. The entire rule-set cannot be about balancing every aspect of the game, because now a 50 pt. character with a silver bow can ignore the points a shield master has spent. That does not sound very balanced at all.

Besides 20 points of damage was just what I whipped up for that scenario. With spells, racial abilities and slayer kits an archer can be doing around 30 pts of unblock-able damage. Sure it costs a lot, but there are a lot of ppl in game who have the points to do it.

Historically arrows main impact was to make armour better. And yes, shields protected you from arrows, they were the main reason shields were used until armor improved. That's why you had to shoot so many arrows at a time in the hope some would hit an actual person. And as armour progressed to plate, knights stopped carrying shields altogether because arrows were growing increasingly ineffective. Archers had to shoot horses to stop knights/cavalry. It required crossbows at close range then bullets to punch through plate.

Also, I did make a suggestion. Make ranged attacks actually have to hit like other weapons. Allowing shields to block arrows does not break the archer's ability to function, it just makes it harder to hit your opponent as shields do for all weapon types. Instead allowing arrows to magically ignore shields does actually negate the shield and associated kits.

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Lucas
Tue Apr 03 2018, 05:59p.m.

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Joined: Sat Dec 09 2006, 11:54p.m.

Posts: 2746
Understood, thank you. We'll review your suggestion next rules meeting.
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Finnik
Wed Apr 04 2018, 12:48p.m.
Registered Member #213
Joined: Thu Mar 22 2007, 05:36p.m.

Posts: 1229
Add a 12 point skill to shield master. Deflect special missile weapons. 3/day. Last a combat or 1 hour. Can be taken multiple times. Does this fix it?
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